Rolling Stones: Sympathy For The Dybbuk
Musician circa early 1984

MUSICIAN: Having just heard the new album for the first time, I'm still in a mild state of shock over the lyrics. It's as if you've dredged up every image of violence, sadism, pain and depravity in the catalog and spewed them out. If I were your therapist
JAGGER: (cackling laugh) That's what Keith tries to be! If he were here, he'd be asking me questions like that. He thinks I went over the top on some of this stuff. But go on....

MUSICIAN: Well, it struck me as an exorcism of sorts, perhaps mostly subconscious. lt's as if you were trying to confront all the internal and external pain in the world and draw it out, expunge it in order to come to grips with it.
JAGGER: Well, I don't know. That seems a very strong thing for you to say, an exorcism of something. Obviously I wrote many of the songs and words but I don't hear it as a whole yet, and I won't for quite a while.

MUSICIAN: How did you react when Keith said it was "over the top"?
JAGGER: I thought it was a natural response on his part because it is a bit weird. In fact, there were a lot more weird things we recorded that didn't get on the record, some because of time, some because of content... but I did go over the top a bit. But once Keith realized it was sincere and did have a meaning--whatever the meaning is, I'm not sure--he got into it. Besides, if you hear a track like "Too Much Blood" from the next room, you'd think it's dancey and nice, all you'd hear are the drums going boom boom boom.. .so...you can dance to it.

MUSICIAN: When you say you're not sure what all this imagery signifies, do you mean that all these images just pour through you as if you were an oracle?
JAGGER: Yeah. It takes over, you know? I heard the album all the way through for the first time last night and I did keep getting these recurrent violent images but.. there is a lot of violence.. and I don't really know why.

MUSICIAN: But can you turn around and face wherever all this imagery is coming from and see what's trying to be said? For instance, if I say that, to me, this album is the spiritual successor to "Gimme Shelter," that this is what we want to take shelter from, could you see that?
JAGGER: No, I can't.. shelter from the storm (laughs). But if you give me some concrete examples of the lyrics or something I could tell you. "She Was Hot," that's not particularly strange. That's a love-on-the-road type of song. I quite like that one.

MUSICIAN: You want examples? Okay, let's pass by the obvious Texas Chain Saw stuff to this. "I was married yesterday to a teenage bride! You said it was only physical, but I love her deep inside! I still see you in my dreams in my kitchen with a knife! With it poised over your head, now who you gonna slice?" Well?
JAGGER: Violence? Nah, that's about when I was married to a sushi chef. (giggles) I mean, they're not all violent. "Under Cover Of Night" is a bit violent, but the next tune is a song about the road, "She Was Hot." Then there's "Pain Of Love," uh, "Too Much Blood ""Must be Hell" is the last one....

MUSICIAN: Mick, this is not the work of a happily adjusted man, calmly settled down and looking forward to having a. kid....
JAGGER: (cackles) Well, my life is not calm at all... not so calm.

MUSICIAN: What constitutes a challenge for you at this point?
JAGGER: It was a challenge just to get this frigging record finished.

MUSICIAN: I can see I'm not going to get any direct answers out of you.
JAGGER: No, you will!

MUSICIAN: / believe that you may be a medium for all this stuf( as you implied, with no more idea of what it's all about as the next guy. But can you stand back and look at it objectively and comment on it? After all, you're not a frivolous person....
JAGGER: But I think I am a very frivolous person! That's why it's hard for me to talk about these kind of things. I don't print the words on the record; if you can't hear them it's too bad. I don't think they're great works of poetry. "Pain Of Love," for instance, is really just a playful song, I think. Just a kind of Lowell Fulsom soul riff with a little smash of S&M.

MUSICIAN: What is it about S&M that fascinates youafterall these years?
JAGGER: Well, love is painful sometimes, sex too. or you can make it painful if you want to. Lots of people are fascinated by it because everyone understands the pains of love and parting. But I'm not really an S&M freak or anything. If I were, I'd say so... and I'd get a lot of calls (cackles).

MUSICIAN: I'll mention that you don't make house calls. Before we move on, are there any other insights about these lyrics you'd like to share with us?
JAGGER: (thoughtfully) There are no cars on this album... no cars at all.

MUSICIAN: "Waiting On A Friend" on Tattoo You made me think you'd begun to tune in to a more compassionate side....
JAGGER: . . . Just let me be cynical for a moment. First of all, it's really not about waiting on a woman friend. It's just about a friend; it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman. I can see people saying, "Oh, we're all much older now, Mick's writing this much more compassionate stuff, must be about a real
person." But that's only in their perception of it.

MUSICIAN: Still, it wasa more vulnerable, gentle side of your image than what we usually see.
JAGGER: Yeah! I'm macho like Burt Reynolds, you know.

MUSICIAN: The resemblance is uncanny. In any case, you're both middle-class culture heroes of sorts. Do you feel that your middle-class upbringing and London School of Economics background is an important aid in grounding you, so you don't really go over the top?
JAGGER: First of all, it made me a snob, especially since very few people in England get to go to college. So therefore you wind up with a feeling that you're okay intellectually, when probably you're a jerk. I mean, I was trying some math tonight and I couldn't do it (laughs).

MUSICIAN: But it gave you a sense of cultural security?
JAGGER: That's what I'm implying, but I'm not sure it's really true. It's probably bullshit.. but yeah, it may have provided some insulation during the early years. It's a lot easier when you become successful when you're young if you have something to help you get through it.

MUSICIAN: Especially since in this society we don't prepare and ground our artists they way we do surgeons or even engineers.
JAGGER: Yeah, that's what Ravi Shankar says, and I think it would have been great to have been trained and centered for a long time. Ravi said they weren't even supposed to pick up their instruments in the early stages--but I'm sure they did on Sundays. Anyway, you don't want to burn out but some people do. That's part of show business, not everyone can handle it. Me, I want to stay together because I want to continue to work.

MUSICIAN: In spite of the fact that you guys have the reputation for dancing on the edge at times, the only member of the
Stones organization who went over the top was Brian Jones. What really happened with him?
JAGGER: He couldn't really hold things together, that's certainly true. (long pause) I wonder what he would have thought of this record? (smiles thoughtfully) It's funny, I thought about that the other day while we were mixing, whether he'd like it or not. Brian was.~ .enthusiastic, insightful, intelligent, and a good musician with a very nice side to him. But I don't think he was really cut out to be famous. He hated to be misquoted in the papers, for instance, and all those things you have to get used to if you want to be famous, which he did. When he became famous, he realized he didn't like it, but by then it was really too late.

MUSICIAN: You once said that you wouldn't want to be forty and still singing "Satisfaction
JAGGER: Whered I say that?! Chapter and verse? (laughs)

MUSICIAN: C'mon, you said it. So now that you're forty, is it really as bad as you thought it would be?
JAGGER: No, not really. I don't mind singing something like that off and on, but I don't want to be doing it for a living. The point is I don't wanttohavetogooutthereand sing it. I'd rather do new stuff.

MUSICIAN: Speaking of oldies, do youagree that those post-Exile, pre-Some Girls Stones albums of the mid-70s were less coherent than....
JAGGER: ... No, I never listen to any of them, really.

MUSICIAN: Things like Goat's Head Soup, Black And Blue....
JAGGER: I don't even know what's on them.

MUSICIAN: You did say at the time though, that Some Girls was your best work in years. Was that mid-70s period a difficult time musically or personally?
JAGGER: It's just what comes out.

MUSICIAN: Let's try another approach: as good as Some Girls was, the production values Were very rough, almost demo quality....
JAGGER: Yeah, it was a bit murky, wasn't it?

MUSICIAN: But Tattoo You was a quantum leap in production values. It sounded like it was mixed with cocaine in the vinyl.
JAGGER: (with mock outrage) Oh, I wouldn't say that... too damn expensive!

MUSICIAN: Nonetheless, it was a dramatic shirt. Who or what brought that about?
JAGGER: That was done in the mix, you mix it brighter with more eq and much more drum kick and a high range on the high-hat. Then you screw around with the bass until it really tightens up. Obviousjy our engineer Chris Kimsey had some practical ideas for the sound, but that was influenced by what the band wanted.

MUSICIAN: And what influenced what the band wanted?
JAGGER: It's like journalism, you tend to be affected by your peers. For us, it's what we hear on the radio. We wanted the new record to sound very 1983, as opposed to something very period, like the Stray Cats. They're very good, but not what I'm after at the moment.

MUSICIAN: The Stones have a reputation for spending a lot of time composing in the studio. Do you ever prepare things in advance nowadays, and do you and Keith ever sit down and actually write together?
JAGGER: Yeah, this time I decided that I wasn't going to rely on stUdio composing. So before recording Undercover, Keith and I went into a little studio with four or five songs I'd done and some he'd worked up, and we played tl~em to each other and he suggested tempos and various adjustments. After a week we had six or seven things to start with. I hate having to go in and teach the whole band in the studio. I'd much rather do it in rehearsal time.

MUSICIAN: When you bring the band an idea, how much of the arrangement input do you ask for from the other guys?
JAGGER: If I have an idea in mind before rehearsal, I'll first run it down with Charlie, or with Charlie and Keith, whoever is there. I'll play guitar if I've written it, or even if I haven't. Usually I'll knock my guitar out of the arrangement in the end, because two guitars are quite enough. But the first thing you want to get down is the time, and that's where someone like Charlie will help you with the arrangements. Say on "All The Way Down," might have written it too slow, and I'm laboring over it a little. Charlie can give you an idea that you hadn't thought of that can change it around completely. Surprisingly enough, some of the ones I did with Charlie on this album came out exactly the same tempo-wise. "Under Cover Of Night," where Charlie was playing a big timpani and I was on acoustic guitar, is in exactly the same tempo now as it was when I wrote it.

MUSICIAN: Satanic Majesties was....
JAGGER: . . . A COMEDY RECORD!!! (cackles loudly) It's not heavy at all, it's really just lightweight comedy. Somebody put it on the other day, and I thought it was hilarious. Didn't do well, though.

MUSICIAN: Do you feel you jumped into that psychedelic thing because of what the Beatles and Beach Boys were doing at the time?
JAGGER: Totally.

MUSICIAN: Was there rivalry between you?
JAGGER: No, we were just obviously out to lunch. I'm saying this because I just heard it recently and realized how much I liked it. What surprised me was the comedic feeling and all the jokes and things we'd never dream of doing now. There were comedic links and French speaking pieces that I took off the new album.

MUSIClAN: But why remove them? Is the climate that different now?
JAGGER: Oh, yeah. Completely different. It's much more serious now.

MUSICIAN: Do you feel more limited now?
JAGGER: No, it's more expansive now, but much, much tougher.

MUSICIAN: Including being on the road?
JAGGER: Concerts in those days were unfortunately a bit messy, terribly scrappily organized, not like now. It wasn't really an industry like now, and maybe a case can be made for the standardization of the industry. I don't know. I remember playing Memphis back in the "scream" age and if any of the twelve-year-old girls would get up and take an Instamatic flash shot, a uniformed policeman would beat her on the head with a nightstick and push her back into her seat. That was complete normality, or normalcy, as you say in Washington.

MUSICIAN: Having been at Altamont, I've always wondered what was going through your mind when things got out of hand.
JAGGER: I didn't feel very proud of myself when I saw the movie, I must say. No, I got into a terrible mess, relied on
other people when I should have. well, a lot of time has passed, so you have time to throw the blame on other people, and time to be guilty as well.

MUSICIAN: On a somewhat lighter note, English artists like Bowie and Ferry told us that they dress up onstage as a defense mechanism to hide their fear of
performing. What's your excuse?
JAGGER: I just love dressing up in silly clothes. That's what people in the theater do, really. If you don't like dressing up and putting makeup on your face, don't get on the stage. You have to want to dress up in your prettiest dress and have a wonderful time, otherwise it's a bore. That's why I love seeing introverted people like David Byrne start to get into it. I saw him recently at Forest Hills, and he's obviously having a better time.

MUSICIAN: If you could only take one Rolling Stones record with you on a trip, which would it be?
JAGGER: The new one.

MUSICIAN: Spoken like a true London School of Economics grad. How about a cassette of other people's material-- what would you choose?
JAGGER: The top twenty of 1958, probably. Plus a few symphonies, Bach and Mozart. But I wouldn't really include any Rolling Stones records. Can we wrap this up? It's getting kind of late.

MUSICIAN: Sure, just one more little question. Looking back, any major regrets?
JAGGER: (giggles) Aw, Gawd, what an interview! I can't be bothered with that.. .I can't be that serious. I think Keith definitely should have been here for this. I hope you ask him all the same bleedin' questions (laughs).

Keith Richards: The Heart of the Stones
by Vic Garbarini, Musician

I mean, I've got to respect their oint of view on this, "says Mick. "After all, the're the ones who have to work it." Keith nods slightly as he reaches for the bottle of Jack Daniels on the desk before him and waits for Jagger to continue. "They had theis problem with Robert Plant," contiues Mick as he paces across the center of the room, hands stuffed in his pockets. "He insisted they release the single he wanted. His albums is doing well, but the single is doing shit, and I said, "Don't worry, w're not really like that. If that's what you want then we'll put out 'She's So Hot' first and leave 'Under Cover Of Night' for later.' It's not gonna kill me."
"Mmm," agrees Keith, tilting back in his chair "There's nothing worse than cracking the whip over people." The exchange between the two top Stones in the New York office of their record company has been friendly and relaxed, if a bit formal. Are they being slightly guarded because I'm here, or do they normally tiptoe around each other? Beats me. As you've guessed by now, they're discussing which track from their new album will be the first single released upon an unsuspecting public.
Undercover is not only their most musically adventurous album in over a decade, it's actually chock full of what ya' call yer "relevant social content." (Considering the violent, bizarre imagery employed, maybe "redeeming social value" is more apt.) Songs like "Under Cover Of Night" (Gabriel Garcia Marquez meets Fellini in hell), "Too Much Blood" (guaranteed to give Stephen King the willies) and "Must Be Hell Out There" (all the aforementioned people are living in your basement), pick up where "Gimme Shelter" left off.

It's a profoundly disturbing piece of work, one that reflects, perhaps a little too vividly, the darker regions of the human psyche circa 1983. Musically it's all hardball rock 'n' roll, though the richness of the mix and spacing of the instruments reflect the influence of Sly and Robbie.
"I told them we'd get back to them in twenty-four hours," concludes Mick, heading for the elevator. "Let's talk about it tomorrow."
Watching him split, I can't help but contrast his antsy, kid-with-a-thyroid-problem extroversion with Keith's gentlemanly grace. Yeah, he may be the self-ravaged Prince of Excess, but he's also a gentle man. You get the feeling that there's someone home there, someone who's found a measure of inner peace and self-acceptance after a long and often painful apprenticeship. (I'm talking about the man's heart. God knows what his liver and nose think about all this.)
"I've been waiting for the left hook," says a wryly smiling Keith only moments afterJagger'sdeparture. "And that was it. We wanted to put out 'Under Cover Of Night' as the first single, but Atlantic isn't going for it." So what's the difference, I wonder out loud. Mick played me both cuts and they're not so radically ditferent. "Mick probably played you the straight version of 'Under Cover,' which does not, uh, suffice," counters Keith, leaping out of his chair and heading for the stereo. "This is the re-mixed dub version that I want to put out." Richards goes into a rubbery dance as a blast of reverb drenched .. . well, try to imagine standing in a massive tunnel while an express train driven by Sly and Robbie with the Rolling Stones strapped to the engine comes barreling towards your ass at 150 miles an hour. Get the picture? No wonder Atlantic balked. This thing could cause your local dance club to reach critical mass, but the AOR wimps are gonna find it hard to swallow. No wonder they opted for the more conventional (and less inspired) "She's So Hot." "That's the hotter mix I want to substitute for the one Mick playedyou," explained Richards. I respond that, for all his flamboyance, Mick strikes me as a conservative at heart. "Yeah," agrees Keith, "when it comes down to what you're going to put out, he goes for the safe mix. I'll say it to you because I said it to him, and he damn well knows it... and if that's the case with this song, then this record isn't finished."
He pauses, reflecting on some inner dialogue, then emits a rumbling, bourbon-soaked chuckle. "And Mick, bless his heart, even agrees with me. He knows he has a problem from that point of view, and he's working on it. He's helped me often with similar situations when I've needed it." If it were totally up to you, Keith, how would the Stones' records differ from what we hear now? "I'm less inclined to go for the typical verse-chorus, verse-chorus approach," responds Keith. "I don't mind a five-minute intro, or knocking out a verse or some vocals. I go for the more aural excitement, whereas Mick very understandably sees most of his work go down the drain if we cut two verses." Another deep chuckle. Another pause. The man is rolling again.
"1 mean, we're the ones who brought out our first album without a title, with two or three instrumentals, put out 'Little Red Rooster,' a real barnyard blues, when everybody thought it was time ~o bring out a smash pop hit. Why be conservative now?" Why indeed.
On the way out after our lengthy interview, I stop to thank the young driver from the limo service for waiting so patiently. "Oh, I don't mind waiting for Mr. Richards." he counters. "The other night I took him over to the studio for the first time. He came back out five minutes after I dropped him off and said, 'Hey, you must be really bored waiting out here. Why don't you come in and watch the band record?"' Needless to say, the driver did. It's reassuring to hear that at the heart of the Stones is a Stone with a heart.

MUSICIAN: When I tried to ask Mick about the orgy of blood and violence on Undercover, he admitted that even you thought he'd gone a bit over the top this time.
RICHARDS: Yeah, I told him that on the phone one night because it was like an avalanche of those images, too much gore crammed on to one piece of tape. That was my first impression at the time, though it was totally different then therewas extra gore at that point. It was his first bash at it, but through the process of making the record and editing, it got tidied up and I changed my
mind once it was finished. So maybe he listened to me a bit....

MUSICIAN: But did you ever ask him why he was expunging all this stuff?
RICHARDS: No, we never sit around and ask ourselves why we write a song, althugh now that it's done we join everybody else in trying to analyze why we did it. I think images just come out; you haven't that much to do with it. If you like an idea that comes along, you sort of carry on writing in the hopes that maybe you'll eventually find out why. There are no answers in the lyrics. They really just raise other questions, which is maybe the point of it.

MUSICIAN: On one level, it all seems a reflection of the obvious ugliness we see around us today.
RICHARDS: That was my immediate reaction to the thing. Look out your front door. Look at the news. You tell me. I'm sure Mick or I or anybody else would be happy not to be bombarded with some of these images, but we are supposedly living in a real world, after all.
In a way, this album is a brother to "Gimme Shelter," and maybe Beggar's Banquet, or a mixture of those two records. If we think about the late 60s, it's as if there's been an. ..ah...

MUSICIAN: ... Intensification?
RICHARDS: Yeah, an intensification of that slightly unstable, mad atmosphere that was around then.

MUSICIAN: I mentioned the "Gimme Shelter" connection to Mick but he didn't really respond. That song would have actually made a much better overture for the 80sthan the 70s. From what you're saying, 1 get the sense that you guys pick up songs from the other, like radio receivers.
RICHARDS: That's precisely my idea, my favorite analogy being an antenna. As long as you turn the set on and put your finger in the air. if there's any songs out there, they'll come through you. It's very easy to get hung up on just the simple mechanics and craft of songwriting rather than the more important thing that real master musicians like the whirling dervishes can tell us about: just letting it go through you and come out the other side.

MUSICIAN: Yeah, but if you ask those guys how to do it, they say that first you have to learn to ground and center yourself so you won't get burned out by the intensity of the current passing through you. So my question is, how does a band like the Stones, with a reputation for dancing a bit close to the edge, keep grounded?
RICHARDS: Maybe the answer is in the nature of the band itself. Maybe whatever energies we come in contact with .. that each person in the band in some way grounds the others. Look at someone like Jimi Hendrix. I mean, he had a couple of boys with him but they weren't a band in the way we've cometo know each other over the years. If there's anything that's stopped us from blowing our loudspeakers, it's probably each other; this weird combination which, like the songs, is another thing we never wanted to dissect ourselves because if we find out how it works it might stop working (laughs).

MUSICIAN: I would imagine that Charlie and Bill are a key element in that anchoring mechanism.
RICHARDS: Yeah, in that they're both incredibly down-to-earth sort of people. Charlie, after twenty years, still can't stand the thought of having to do even the slightest thing that strikes a false note, like smiling at somebody if you don't want to. He'd rather give them a scowl, so at least it's honest. Bill and
Charlie are very similar in that they keep you grounded because you can't really be around people like them and strike any false notes musically or personally, because you'll instantlyget locked outoftheroom. I imaginethatif we'd hada couple of totally different guys in their places, we could have collapsed in a very short time. Or Mick and I would have gone totally super-starish, God forbid.

MUSICIAN: In the past, whenever another guitarist would work with the band, you'd step back and play rhythm. But since Ron joined, the responsibilities seem much more evenly divided.
RICHARDS: For me, it's very similar to when I started playing with Brian Jones, though Ron is a lot more accomplished. In the early days, Brian, Mick and I worked out a way that we could weave our guitars together so you could never quite be sure who was playing what, ratherthan just dividing things into straight rhythm and leads.

MUSICIAN: But you and Ronnie play naturally in the same style. Do you ever trip over each other?
RICHARDS: The fact is Ronnie can play like me, but I can't play like Ronnie. He's uncanny in that if I was going to make a record by myself, most of what I would try to overdub is exactly what Ronnie would play in that situation. The fact that we've been working intensely together over the last two or three
tours has made an awful lot of difference.

MUSICIAN: What happens when you bring a song to the band? Are you open to their input or do you have a fixed arrangement in mind?
RICHARDS: When I walk in the studio, I never openly say I've-got-a-song-and-it-goes-like-this. In fact, sometimes I don't say anything because I don't have a song as I walk through the door (laughs). Probably over fifty percent of the time I walk in with absolutely no idea of what I'm going to do. So there we are with everybody just looking at each other... somebody's got to take the lead. So I don't let them know I've got nothing. I just start playing and I can always find one or two things back there. Usually, Charlie picks up on the changes and might come in with a totally different beat or rhythm. Before you know it, the song has written itself.

MUSICIAN: Is your approach different if you're working on somebody else's song?
RICHARDS: If it's my song, I'll usually show the band the basic rhythm thing first. But if I walk in the studio and Mick's been running down a tune with Charlie and Ronnie for an hour or two, then I'll just come in and start weaving some lines over the top...because I usually can't figure out how the rhythm goes! (laughs)

MUSICIAN: Sting recently told us that the Police have begun recording with each member of the band in a separate room, which is something I couldn't imagine the Stones doing--or am I wrong?
RICHARDS: No, the whole band plays the basic track together. People think we re archaic, but we've always done it like that and that's the only way the Stones can do it. Sure, we'll play around with the overdubs and the mix later. But, as Duke Ellington said, "If it ain't got that swing...

MUSICIAN: Let's focus in on one or two examples. "Start Me Up," for instance:
how did that evolve?
RICHARDS: "Start Me Up" was a reggae track to begin with, totally different. It was one of those things we cut a lot of times; one of those cuts that
you can play forever and ever in the studio. Twenty minutes go by and you're still locked into those two chords... (laughs)

MUSICIAN: That archetypal "Brown Sugar" riff still hooks you in, eh?
RICHARDS: Yeah, that's exactly the point. Sometimes you become conscious of the fact that, "Oh, it's 'Brown Sugar' again," so you begin to explore other rhythmic possibilities. It's basically trial and error. As I said, that one was pretty locked into a reggae rhythm for quite a few weeks. We were cutting it for Emotional Rescue, but it was nowhere near coming through, and we put it aside and almost forgot about it. Then, when we went back in the can to get material for Tattoo You, we stumbled on a non-reggae version we'd cut backthen and realized that was what we wanted all along.

MUSICIAN: There's little actual reggae on Undercover, yet the production values are very Jamaican. The deep reverb, the spacing of the instruments, the, accentuation of the bass and drums and the obvious dub take on the extended version of "Under Cover Of Night"...
RICHARDS: That's it. A lot of Jamaican reggae interests me because they have a lovely, wide-open concept about recording, which the rest of us are slowly coming around to. For them, a console is as much an instrument as a drum or a guitar. They don't have any of the preconceived rules that we have
ingrained in us from our earlier recording days: You must fade things out slow, very genteel. They'll just go WHACK' BANG! and drop out an instrument. Such a wonderful freedom from preconceived ideas. When we first started working.with our engineer Chris Kimsey, we tried to turn him on to some dub records. He was interested but he didn't really get into it until we started working in Jamaica over the last few years.

MUSICIAN: Any particular Jamaican producers who've heavily influenced you?
RICHARDS: Lee Perry, for one. But there are some people you don't normally think of as producers, like Sly Dunbar, who are incredible. I didn't realize how good he was until recently when we were in the same studio in Nassau. He's become a real production whiz; it's a real drama watching him behind the board. Matter of fact, that's him doing percussion on Simmons Drums on a couple of tracks on the new album.

MUSICIAN: There's also an African feel on some of those tracks.
RICHARDS: We brought in a couple of guys from Senegal to get that percussive bongo sound. They brought in their own instruments, and an incredible array of primitive African hardware, so there's lots of great percussion throughout the album; a lot of work with rhythms.

MUSICIAN: Looking back, Some Girls was a quantum leap in quality over those mid-70s Stones albums. What happened?
RICHARDS: I ask myself this one sometimes. I think a lot of it was Chris Kimsey. We were also at a point where we asked ourselves, "Are we just going to do another boring Stones-in-the-doldrums sort of album?"

MUSICIAN: So you felt that, too. I have a hard time going back to those albums and finding more than two cuts I can play.
RICHARDS: I know what you mean. First of all, they remind me of being a junkie (laughs ruefully). What happened was I'd been through the bust in Canada, which was a real watershed--or Water-gate--f or me. I'd gone to jail, been cleaned up, done my cure, and I'd wanted to come back and prove there was some difference... some. some reason for this kind of suffering. So Some Girls was the first record I'd been able to get back into and view from a totally different state than I'd been in for most of the 70s. We're talking about that post-Exile period; Goatshead Soup, BlackAndBlue, which was really an audition for a new guitar player, and Only Rock And Roll.

MUSICIAN: Besides your drug problem, what made that such a fallow period for the Stones?
RICHARDS: We were dealing with a whole load of problems that built up from being who we were; what the 60s were. There was the fact that we all had to leave England if we wanted to keep the Stones going, which we did, and then trying to re-deal with each other when suddenly we were scattered halfway around the globe instead of "see you in half an hour." Also dealing with a lot of success and a lot of money over a long period. We'd been working non-stop and then suddenly had to deal with a backlog of problems that had built up because nobodyd had time to deal with them. Then there was Brian dying....

MUSICIAN: Why didn't that special chemistry of the band you spoke of before sustain Brian?
RICHARDS: In the coldest analytical terms, Brian didn't foresee the necessity of having a certain inner strength. Because these guys are very strong, very tough.

MUSICIAN: When did you first notice there was something wrong?
RICHARDS: Well, we were all idealistic kids at the time, just wanted to play the blues. But I remember very vividly once, when we were still playing clubs, the Beatles came to see us. Then when they played the Albert Hall in London, Brian and I went to their show. It was one of their first big concerts. I think Del Shannon was top of the bill actually, although they obviously were going to steal the show. They were enormous already, as they started coming on. The place went mad, women screaming and it was astounding 'cause l'd never seen anything like it.
But I remember looking at Brian at that point and he was totally transfixed, absolutely gone. It was as if he was watching the crucifixion. And from that moment on, I felt that Brian wanted to be a star more than he wanted to be a musician. That's what he wanted, and that's what he got, and then he didn't know what to do with it. That hunger sort of took over all his other faculties.

MUSICIAN: And that type of hunger is never going to be satiated.
RICHARDS: No, never. And obviously standing out there in front of three thousand fourteen-year-old girls is NOT the answer to life, either.

MUSICIAN: Did you feel you were compromising somewhat when you switched from being blues purists to pop songwriters around that time?
RICHARDS: No, we were making the same mistake as most white kids who get hung up on the blues. We'd become elitist, although we used to despise the so-called purists. So we needed to reconcile all this with our own pasts and where audiences were at. And everything we've done since then has been a reconciliation, because even before Mick and I got together with the Stones we were big rock fans. Mick was in a Buddy Holly vein for a few years and I was roped into a weirdo country band for a while. I was real hung up on Gene Vincent. I used to have to play guitar for this guy who desperately wanted to be Gene Vincent, just to get a ride home on
his motorbike (laughs).

MUSICIAN: You mean you sold your soul for a lift home?
RICHARDS: (laughs) Well, I enjoyed it. It was "all right" at the time. But I'd do anything to get a ride home (laughs). But we were blatant out and out rock 'n' roll fans from the start. Little Richard was the first guy that really drilled Mick and I into the wall with "Good Golly Miss Molly." This wasn't pop, though.

MUSICIAN: Did you later find it satisfying to write more pop-oriented tunes like, well, "Satisfaction"?
RICHARDS: The truth is if I'd had my way, it would never have been released (laughs). We were recording in L.A. at the time at RCA and it just tripped off the end of my tongue, as it were, one night. We needed another track for the album so I threw it in as filler I mean, the song was basic as the hills and I thought the fuzz guitar thing was a bit of a gimmick. So when they said they wanted it as a single, I got up on my hind legs for the first time and said, NO WAY! I really hadn't grasped what Mick and the band had done with it. You go through that all the time with tracks.

MUSICIAN: Time for the Cliche Question of the Hour- What comes first: the music or the words?
RICHARDS: The ideal thing, of course, is when they suddenly appear together When there's only one phrase that fits and it says it all, and all you have to do then is fill in the gaps.
But it's not often that it happens.

MUSICIAN: Can you think of any times it did?
RICHARDS: "Gimme Shelter" is a classic one. That I just slapped down on a cassette while waiting for Mick to finIsh filming Performance. "H onky Tonk Woman" is another A lot of times you're fooling with what you consider to be just working titles or even working hooks, and then you realize there's nothing else that's going to slip in there and fit in the same way. So you're left with this fairly inane phrase (laughs). Before recording this album Mick and I went into a little studio in Paris together for the first time in many years to work together We wrote "I Want To Hold You" with me singing and playing guitar and Mick on drums. Mick's a real good drummer but he doesn't play enough so every once in a while, he has to stop and take a break. After we'd written it he said, "Wow, this song is very early Lennon & McCartney." It's probably just the placement of certain instruments and the harmonies. In any case, there I was stuck with this working hook of "I Want To Hold You." Except that you can't find another hook that's going to fit, so I just went with it.

MUSICIAN: What about Ron? Is there an unspoken understanding in the band that nobody writes except you and Mick?
RICHARDS: Oh, no. Ronnie is the main instigator and part writer of "Pretty Beat Up." The chord sequence was his and I came up with the title and Mick added extra lyrics. I play bass on that one and Ronnie's on bass on "I Want To Hold You" and "Tie You Up," and Bill's on synthesizer on "Pretty Beat Up."

MUSICIAN: For years, there have been rumors that Bill might be kicked out of the band, rumors fueled by the things like him not playing bass on a number of tracks on Exile. BilItold me he had the feeling that you guys were not quite sure of him--not musically, but in the sense that he doesn't live your lifestyles.
RICHARDS: I can understand his feelings except that I'm sure he also knows that no one is expected to live any particular lifestyle. There are many diverse lifestyles and vicestyles in this band, and we all respect each others' space. True, Bill doesn't live the way Mick or I or Ronnie or Brian used to, but neither does Charlie, and that's the beauty of those guys. And. Bill has come on like a ton of bricks in the last few years. After all the things he's been wondering and thinking about and keeping to himself, suddenly he's the busiest guy of the lot, out there making movies and becoming the only one of us who's had a hit record outside the Stones. There's probably nobody I've grown to appreciate more over the years than Bill Wyman. Charlie I've always appreciated, and Mick I've known since I was so young I can't even remember But Bill is someone I've had to grow to appreciate.

MUSICIAN: What was the problem with Mick Taylor then?
RICHARDS: I was going to ask you that (laughs).

MUSICIAN: Bill felt he left because he was demanding more of a voice in the songwriting and couldn't get it.
RICHARDS: Well, yeah, I guess that's pretty fair After five years with the Stones you can understand how someone can get those frustrations, whether real or imagined.

MUSICIAN: Which was it? Did he only imagine that you were turning down his material?
RICHARDS: No, he never really wrote things, in spite of what he said. It's basically imagination. We all know by now that Mick hasn't done anything since he left the Stones that he couldn't have done in his spare time with the band. He just said he wanted to do his own thing. Mick Taylor is an admirable gentleman and a beautiful guitar player, but I don't really think he knew what he was good at and what he wasn't.

MUSICIAN: How was it working with him as a band member in his capacity as lead guitarist, as opposed to Brian or Ron?
RICHARDS: He was very reluctant to take any direction. I don't mean from the band, because we don't tell anybody what to play, but from the production end of it. Jimmy Miller used to go through reams of frustration, saying, "Tell the guy not to play there!" Meanwhile Mick is over there and he's just going to do what he's going to to. And so he did it.

MUSICIAN: For years I went through a lot of frustration trying to get that ringing chordal sound you get on guitar. Finally, someone who worked with you told me the secret was that you used only five strings on your guitar and a special open tuning. What's the advantage of that kind of tuning and where'd it come from?
RICHARDS: The advantage is that you can get certain drone notes going. It's an open tuning, with the low E string removed and there's really only three notes you use. My favorite phrase about this style of playing is that all you need to play it is five strings, three notes, two fingers and one asshole (general merriment). Actually, it's an old five-string banjo tuning that dates back to when the guitar began to replace the banjo in popularity after the first World War It's called a Sears & Roebuck tuning sometimes because they started selling guitars then. The blacks used to buy them and lust take the bottom string off and tune them like their banjos. It's also very good for slide work.

MUSICIAN: Are there only a limited number of chord shapes to work with?
RICHARDS: Obviously there's not as many shapes as in concert tuning, but there's an amazing number of augmented and diminished things you can do and basically still keep the same chord going and a lot of the notes ringing. It's roughly the same principle as the sitar without having the sympathetic strings, because you have the possibility, especially when you electrify an open G, of having those hanging notes that go through all the chord changes and still ring. (picking up guitar) See, if I remove this low E and retune from the bottom or fifth string, it's G, D, G, B, D.

MUSICIAN: Why'd you start using it--boredom?
RICHARDS: Yeah, in a sense. After playing just about every night for five years, I was no longer getting any "happy accidents." I knew my way around the guitar enough that I was starting to get locked into playing like myself. So open tuning was a kind of therapy in which I had to teach myself the instrument again in a new way.

MUSICIAN: What was the first thing you wrote in an alternate tuning?
RICHARDS: I started precisely around the time of Beggar's Banquet. "Street Fighting Man" was an early one and just before that "Jumping Jack Flash" (plays rift on guitar, shifts it slightly into Chicago blues style vamp). The Everly Brothers got "Bye Bye Love" from working with that kind of riff, too.

MUSICIAN: Are there any young bands in the United Kingdom that really impress you today?
RICHARDS: Mick and I picked up on the Stray Cats before anybody else did and tried to sign them to the Stones' label. Brian Setzer's an excellent player and they're all nice guys. The Police are good old hands; I mean, Andy's from the same era as I am. I thought their reworking of "Stand By Me," "Every Breath You Take," was a beautiful record. The basic thrust of the song is real Drifters, a classic pop sequence with an extra twist thrown in. And "Roxanne" was one of our big favorites during the 1978 tour.

MUSICIAN: What about the Clash, who've been compared to the early Stones in terms of raw energy and approach, but who were quick to say they don't want to wind up like the Stones?
RICHARDS: I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't want to end up like the Rolling Stones. Then again, I don't want to end up like the Clash, either. But the Rolling Stones haven't ended up yet. And we've never kicked anybody out of our band for ideological reasons. If that's the way they think, they should go back to the Politburo. That's my beef with the Clash. I don't really listen to them because I can't stand that kind of pseudointellectualism being wound into music. It's got nothing to do with essence.

MUSICIAN: It's a shame that they may wind up spoiling something special through their self-righteousness, I agree.
RICHARDS: You can even see people doing the opposite. Look at Jerry Lee Lewis. Here you're talking about a very religious man, a guy who grew up in church, and worries if he's the guy who took the left-handed path to show everybody how not to do it.

MUSICIAN: The tragic thing is that he doesn't realize that many spiritual musicians from Asia and Africa consider rock and jazz to be some of our most effective connections with the sacred in mankind. With that premise in mind, what do you, in your heart, believe the role of the Stones to be in the greater sQheme of things, if anything. What do they stand for~ what contribution do they make?
RICHARDS: That's a good question, and one I don't know if I can really answer. Looking at it over the years, I suppose that the Rolling Stones somehow reverberate to some currently universal vibrational note. And the basic thing is for us to respond to it and therefore have the response come back to us. It's difficult for those of us in the band to say what the Stones mean, because our view of the Stones is the most unique you can get. We've never really seen ourselves play; we've never been able to sit back and say, "Ah, let's go see the Stones." Or even just buy a Stones album, and hear it fresh, cause we'd just sit around and say, "We should have done this or that."

MUSICIAN: But do you see yourselves mirroring society at some level?
RICHARDS: Yes, but something gets processed through the machinery of us being the Rolling Stones, of being thrown into the, arena as public figures.

MUSICIAN: One of the hazards of being a pu6lic figure for you seems to be getting punched out by Chuck Berry.
RICHARDS: Oh, yeah, he gave me a black eye backstage in
New York. I'd come up behind him and said, "Berry, what's happening?" And BAM, he turned around and let me have it. I saw him in the LA. airport recently and he said, "I'm real sorry about all that; I didn't recognize you." I was just very proud of the fact that I hadn't gone down.

MUSICIAN: Your vocals have gotten stronger and more confident over the years. Would you like to sing more often with the band?
RICHARDS: I've always enjoyed singing, but that wouldn't leave Mick with much to do.

MUSICIAN: True, the tambourine is a limited medium of expression. Did you ever have any formal vocal training?
RICHARDS: Yeah, I used to sing in a choir at Westminster Abbey.

MUSICIAN: Right Keith Richards,:the choir boy. They'd never buy it, Keith.
RICHARDS: No, I'm serious! I was a soprano in a hot choir for four or five years. We used to get off from school and get free trips to London to play festivals. The three of us who were sopranos used to do the solo down the aisle of Westminster Abbey with the cassocks and the whole bit. And the funny thing is all three of us were the biggest hoods in the school Then tmy voice broke and they kicked me out. That was my first taste of show business. (chuckles)

MUSICIAN: Another thing Bill Wyman trold us was that you were much nicer and more introtroverted than your public image would indicate.
Richards: (Shyly) We all are

MUSICIAN: Is there a 'Keith' image that you project, maybe subconsciously, so the world can focus on that while you live your own life?
RICHARDS: No, least not consciously. There is, an image projected that people come for and take away with them and give to their readers if they're a lot of me in that image. I've e never tried consciously to project it, but there's not really much you can do about it. It's like a little shadow person that you live with. In some situations, I'll realize, "Uh, no, these people expect me to do a real Keith Richards. . ." and sometimes it's quite funny

MUSICIAN: : Do you ever worry about...?
RICHARDS: As long as you're aware of it, it's something to play with. I'd only get worried if I really became like Keith Richards... whoever he is (laughs).

New Grey Whistle Test

Back in the early 60s, the Stones were asked to rate current pop and rock records on the BBC's television show "The Old Grey Whistle Test." They claimed to hate everything they heard that night with one exception: their o~ new single. Twenty years later MUSICIAN asked Keith to give it another try. We played for him a selection of the material from the U.K. and U.S. charts and asked him to rate them on a scale of one to ten. Herewith are the results.
Aztec Camera, "Walk Out In Winter" -- Nice guitar, white Scottish soul, like a forerunner of the Average White Band. Givin' 'em a good seven.
Graham Parker , "Life Gets Better" -- Graham is it? He's got a nice presence to his voice, real English soul this time. Eight going on nine. Let's say eight and a half.
Juluka, "Ijwanasibeki " -- I love it. You say they're half Zulus and half white guys? Those spacious African harmonies are great. The only problem with the record is the drum sounds; they all start to sound alike nowadays because there are only three or four standaid boards you go through no matter where you record. I could have also used a little more Zulu and a little less of the white guys. Still, the Zulus can always teach you something. Let's give them a good eight.
Stevie Ray Vaughan , "Pride And Joy" -- (drily) Classic white-boy blues, very proficient. He's got a good voice and he can play guitar but there's only so far you can take that. Of course, you could stick us on doing "Black Limousine" and I could say the exact same thing. If you start talking choice of material, I'd give him a five, but sound-wise, it's fine. Make it a seven.
Paul Young , "Wherever I lay My Hat" -- Kid's got a great voice. This is an old Marvin Gaye tune, but the production sounds like he's already been influenced by "Every Breath You Take." Nice voice, but leaning on the Police a bit. I'd give it a seven and a half. The Police, "Wrapped Around Your Finger" --Take it off.. elevator music. I know it's the Police but it's a blind spot for me. Sounds like Christopher Cross. I like the Police but that track sounds like what they play in my dentist's office. (No rating.)
Shalamar, "Dead Giveaway" -- Nice rhythm section, boring song. Soul Train. MTV material. We're going to get rough on the last lot now. I'll say four I can hear them now (in a high, whining voice), "Should have pla~wd mine first, uhen he u'as being generous!" Bananarama, "Shy Boy" -- More MLV music, but a kind of nice, naive, dumb sort of feel about it. Sure, you could say they can hardly sing but since Caruso died, who can? It's more a question of: you have a voice, what do you want to do with it?Theyhave as much right as anyone else. Five.
Joan Jett, "Handy Man" -- Thanks, darling, I really needed that (laughs). No, she does a good job of it. I'd rather hear myself coming back at me through her than a bunch of guys dressed up funny. There's a genuine enthusiasm behind it; nobody'stryingto be artsy-craftsy. Let's go back up into the eights for that one.
Culture Club, "Time (Clock Of The Heart)" -- Boy George, yeah. He's good, real good. He understands how all the parts fit together, too. He deserves eight and a half... in the right place.
Big Country, "In A Big Country" -- A bit studied, a little too self-conscious. But there are some nice sounds on there. Seven.
Talking Heads, "Home-The Place I Want To Be" -- David Byrne. Very clever. There's nothing like a repressed white boy. I get the sense of somebody who's trying to feel something outside his brain, which for him is a big step. I'll give him an eight for breaking out.
Prince , "Little Red Corvette--Prince trying to be Stevie Wonder ..(angrily) take it off. I wish him luck. He's got a problem with his attitude and it comes across on record. Prince has to find out what it means to be a prince. That's the trouble with conferring a title on yourself before you've proved it. That was his attitude when he opened for us on the tour, and it was insulting to our audience. You don't try to knock off the headline like that when you're playing a Stones crowd. You'd be much better off just being yourself and projecting that. He's a prince who thinks he's a king already. Good luck to him. (No rating.)

Stones Age Implements

Keith started out on Gibsons, but switched to Telecasters around the time of Exile On Main Street. "It's a real comfortable guitar for me, nice size and weight. And with the right one I can get the range I want because electronics have become some sophisticated today." The 'right one" is usually his black '75 Custom Telecaster, which Keith claims the Meters' guitarist turned him on to in San Antonio. "He took me to this music store and there it was, a real gem amid all those late CBS models and Fender copies. It could have been made by Leo himself." He and Ronnie Wood have also gotten into using ESP Navigators, "because the balance between the nut and the bridge means you can really waggle 'em and they don't go out of tune." But his current fave is a brand-new, leather covered custom job by Joseph Giselli. "He's an incredible craftsman," enthuses Keith. "The leather may seem a bit rockish, but it's not gonna take scratches or ruin like wood." There's also a slew of black Les Pauls from the 60s, a blonde '54 Telecaster and some Ted Newman Jones and Dobys by Doug Young in the arsenal, as well as a few old Martin acoustics and Gibson Hummingbirds. "I've actually been using the Les Paul Junior more lately," he adds, "the three black Les Pauls being in the shop." Strings are Ernie Ball Regular Slinkys ("Sometimes in the studio I'll use a heavier gauge to get that nice, beefy tone for chord work"). Effects are by MXR, principally the 100 Phaser and analog delay ("for that rockabilly feel"). Keith goes wireless onstage via Nady, with those cwazy signals eventually emerging from Mesa Boogie amps. (Or, as Keith calls 'em, "Mesa BEW-gies.") Mick Jagger plays Adamas acoustics and early 60s Gibson SGs and Les Paul SGs.

October 1917: A small village in the Ural Mountians. It was just before sunset when Father Sergei first herar the hideous screams. "Noth the Strelnikovs again," he groaned as he heaved his considerable bulk out the door of the rectory, pausing only briefly to grab the massive silver crucifix the old starets had given him. Waiting for him by the door or the Strelnikov's ramshackle cabin was the couple's idiot son, Igor. Farther Sergei winced in anticipation of the spray of spittle that inevitably accompanied the terrified boy's babbling explanations. Oh, Your Excellency, we try everything, blubbered the lad, "the Holy Water, the garlic wreath, the icons, the candles, but.. .the thing... it will not leave!' Crossing himself in the Russian manner, the old priest pushed past the trembling boy into the cabin and began to survey the chaotic scene before him. Overturned tables, clothes and food were scattered everywhere. There was old Berel, cursing and wailing as he thrashed wildly with his woodsman's axe at something, while his fat wife Katyushka jabbered frenzied prayers before an icon of St. Cyril. The Creature was almost at the priest's face before he could react. "PLEEEEZED TA MEET CHA," it cackled as it whizzed by within inches of his nose, "HOPE YA GUESS MA NAAAAAMMEH!!"
It was then that he first clearly glimpsed the bird-like thing, with its rolling bloodshot eyes, huge lips, lolling tongue and leathery little wings. This was no mere poltergeist, no household demon or forest sprite, surmised the priest. "Please, Father," screamed Katyushka, as the thing swooped into the cupboard, covering itself in white flour and dipping its bulbous lips into the red currant jam, "if we don't guess its name, it will destroy everything!" Grasping the huge crucifix before him, Father Sergei strode resolutely towards the center of the cabin. "YAGA!" cried the prelate at the startled creature. "AWWWWK! GIMME SHELTA!" squawked the Yaga, as it fluttered down from the ceiling and came to rest on the rough pine table, where it began preenir~g its shiny little wings and nibbling at the borscht. "LET ME KEEEEEL IT!" drooled the idiot son, wringing its neck till its eyes bulged.

"No!" thundered the prelate. "The Yaga is a special creature who comes rarely with messages of great import. There is much he can tell us, if we dare to ask."

"Fine," mumbled Berel, raising his axe menacingly towards the cowering Yaga. "Tell us what happened to Uncle Ivan's lost cow ""And why I never win at bingo," whined his wife.

"Not those kind of questions," cried Father Sergei in exasperation. "Besides, no matter how hard you try, the Yaga cannot answer any questions directly. lt.comes with a message and a warning which even the Yaga itself doesn't understand, and we must heed it." "CAN'T ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU WANT," screeched the agitated thing, hopping from foot to foot GET WHAT YA NEEEEEEEEED."

The old couple cautiously edged closer to the Yaga. "But is it devil or an angel?" whimpered Katyushka. "Neither," sighed Father Sergei, as he seated himself on the old bench before the hearth. "It's a Leo. They're into dramatization and externalization," he patiently explained. "Not ones for introspection. In fact, the Yaga is like the telegraph receiving station up at Uspensky village. He picks up vibrations and signals that ordinarj folk cannot hear, yet are around us all the time. They're usually only the lower, grosser vibrations, so his arrival must mean that things have gotten pretty bad."

And so the Yaga spoke unto them of all kinds of mean and nasty things. There were massacres committed with magic saws, and men and women physically and mentally torme'nting each other. There was hatred, fear, mistrust and ignorance. And blood. Too much blood. It was as if the room must explode under the weight of his vision. "Under Cover Of Night," shrieked the Yaga, as it rolled its eyes at the rising moon.

"HUNG AROUND ST. PETERSBURG.. WHEN I SAW IT WAS TIME FOR A CHANNNNNNNNNGE!" it crowed as it flew straight through the window and out over the frozen taiga in the direction of the Imperial Capitol. And they quaked in fearwhen they thought of what might be in store for the Czar and his ministers and the rest of the Romanoffs, especially young Princess Anastasia and everyone's favorite, little Prince Noodles.

"YOU SHOULD HAVE LET ME KEEEEEL IT!" howled Igor, grabbing his club as he leapt from his seat.

"IDIOT!" bellowed Father Sergei. (For indeed, Igor was an idiot, as has been explained.) "Do you understand nothing? Why do you blame the Yaga when he is only mirroring what is in your own soul? Better to reflect and take heed of what he shows us, and prepare for the coming storm by seeking the light we've lost."

For one brief shining moment, the light of recognition flashed across Igor's countenance. Smiling blissfully, eyes brimming with tears, he raised his club and smashed himself in the head, pitching forward into the borscht.